What's to hate? This is a forum for political debate, its what we do here.

I notice that you didn't directly address any point that I bought up. You can't just wave your hand and dismiss my objections, amigo.

Is that supposed to discredit me somehow? :grin: You have no idea what I watch or where I get my data. I've made about 3,000 posts on the Iraq war here and if you bother to read any of them, you'll find that I back up what I say. Try me. If you imagine that I am just aping some particular media talking head and don't know my news, international geopolitics, or history, then you're making a mistake.

Sometimes doing nothing is exactly the answer. The Iraq war was a foolish blunder, an unnecessary war without provocation, and a political disaster for America. You seem to confuse the important war against our enemies of 9/11 in Afghanistan with the stupid and self-destructive war that George Bush started in Iraq. You do understand that they are two separate issues?

You invoke Chamberlain, so who exactly are we appeasing here? Your analogy makes no sense.

Japan attacked us and Germany declared war on us. The Iraq War is nothing like WWII and is an even worse comparison. We started this war. It was elective and a mistake of the highest order, diverting oour vital human and economic resourses away from the fight with Al Qaida and putting in a poor position with our deadly old adversaries the Russians and the Chinese.

We have very different ideas of who is being short-sided here. No one needs to "run and hide". We have bases and forces throughout the region. We just need to quit this endless patrolling of people who hate us and want us gone. We already won the war and gain nothing from staying longer. The top brass know we need to get out. The retired generals are becoming quite strident about it. The soldier blogs give a very teling picture, too. Many think they are being wasted pursuing a failed policy that is clearly going nowhere. We are abusing our fine military by giving them an unwinnable political mission such as this occupation.

The only hope for this country is for incompent fools like George Bush and his blind sycophants to be replaced by intelligent, pragmatic leaders, hopefully moderates, instead of right-wing idealogues.

Unsubstatiated alarmist predictions just don't cut it anymore, my friend. We have been lied to much too often and so have you. Take the blinders off and look around. We are violating the first law of holes in Iraq. When you dig yourself into a hole, you don't just keep digging it deeper. You dig your way out and regain your strength and mobility. Staying in Iraq is hurting us, a fool can see it. They got nothing we need. This is no place for Flashy!

We will survive by being smart and resourceful, not overbearing and overreaching. Resolve alone is simply not the answer when the mission is so badly flawed. We have to play it much smarter than that.

This is a political discussion forum, amigo. Why are you taking it so personal when people disagree with you? Why else do you post here other than to discuss your views with others who have different viewpoints? It seems like you expect us to just say "Gee, you're right", when you haven't convinced us. I don't take your comments personally, I simply respond to them with my view and give my reasons for thinking so.

So, you assume our families have never served this country, just because we disagree with you? We can't be patriotic like you because we disagree? This is flag-waving at its worst.

I'm a tad Hawkish, too. My objections to the Iraq War are not based on notions of "peace" or other "Dovish" ideas, they are based on the fact that this is a stupid occupation to be engaged in. I'm very pro-military and support having a larger military force. I just don't want to see it squandered by politicians whose policies are failures. This is happening right now, ask your military friends how our readiness has decreased in the last four years.

What I advocate is SMART war, which Iraq is surely not. I've endorsed our smart wars like the Cold War, Panama, Grenada, Bosnia, and Serbia. I've not endorsed STUPID wars like Vietnam, Somalia, Lebanon and Iraq.

Sometimes a president screws up. When it happens he must fix the problem, difficult as it may be, not go onward with more failure as if resolve alone were the solution.

This is a political discussion forum, amigo. Why are you taking it so personal when people disagree with you? Why else do you post here other than to discuss your views with others who have different viewpoints? It seems like you expect us to just say "Gee, you're right", when you haven't convinced us. I don't take your comments personally, I simply respond to them with my view and give my reasons for thinking so.

So, you assume our families have never served this country, just because we disagree with you? We can't be patriotic like you because we disagree? This is flag-waving at its worst.

I'm a tad Hawkish, too. My objections to the Iraq War are not based on notions of "peace" or other "Dovish" ideas, they are based on the fact that this is a stupid occupation to be engaged in. I'm very pro-military and support having a larger military force. I just don't want to see it squandered by politicians whose policies are failures. This is happening right now, ask your military friends how our readiness has decreased in the last four years.

What I advocate is SMART war, which Iraq is surely not. I've endorsed our smart wars like the Cold War, Panama, Grenada, Bosnia, and Serbia. I've not endorsed STUPID wars like Vietnam, Somalia, Lebanon and Iraq.

Sometimes a president screws up. When it happens he must fix the problem, difficult as it may be, not charge onward with more failure as if resolve alone were the solution.

We chastise your ideas, not you, my friend. That's what debating is all about. Perhaps a thicker skin is required to get into political arguments here.

As do you. A discussion requires two sides.

But ,we are here to try to understand why you think that way. I have had my mind changed in such discussions, but our arguments must withstand scrutiny to be convincing. You are welcome to challenge mine.

You should have been here during the 2004 election, when I was the lone voice against Bush around here. Many on your side of the argument have changed their minds about the war.

Uhhhh, . . . OK. You're giving up awfully easy. When you cut and run, the terrorists win. :wink: