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Another War....

Discussion in 'Free Speech Alley' started by Rex_B, Mar 19, 2011.

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mobius481 Registered Member

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Red, is targeting Gadhafi in a bombing raid to kill him an option?

mobius481, Mar 20, 2011

#11
red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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mobius481 said: ↑

Red, is targeting Gadhafi in a bombing raid to kill him an option?
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That is beyond the UN mandate and Moamar is likely in a deep bunker or in a tent way out on the desert disguised as a bedouin. The building hit was Qadaffi's main communications center and it is doctrine to hit all the central communications facilities early in establishing air supremacy.

red55, Mar 20, 2011

#12
mctiger RIP, and thanks for the music Staff Member

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SabanFan said: ↑

Qaddafi is a sniveling coward. This is all that will be necessary.
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I hope you're right, because recent history suggests you can't really win unless you put troops on the ground. And I just don't see BHO doing that.

btw, I hope he doesn't. I just don't see the need to put American lives at risk in Libya. Red's solution is right; we supply the air support. Let the nations that really have a dog in this fight supply the ground pounders.

mctiger, Mar 20, 2011

#13
red55 curmudgeon Staff Member

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mctiger said: ↑

I just don't see the need to put American lives at risk in Libya. Red's solution is right; we supply the air support. Let the nations that really have a dog in this fight supply the ground pounders.
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The Limeys and the Cheese-eating Surrender Monkeys are driving this show. We must let them. I'm not quite sure why the Fourth Reich is siting this one out. Those boys have lost their swagger but really didn't accomplish chit in Bosnia or Afghanistan anyway.

http://my.earthlink.net/article/int?guid=20110320/ca88d4f2-261c-446b-9b50-964781f9ee33

Europe, not US, pushed for military force in Libya

ANGELA CHARLTON
From Associated Press
March 20, 2011 7:27 PM EDT
PARIS (AP) — America unleashed the heavier firepower, but Europe — to the surprise of some — was the driving force behind the assault on Libya's Moammar Gadhafi.

France, perhaps hoping to purge memories of a dictator-coddling past, fired the first strikes Saturday. Britain, still stinging from its release of the Libyan agent behind the Lockerbie plane bombing, cajoled other nations into joining.

...

The contrast with 2003 — when France led global opposition to the war on Iraq — shows how much has changed since then, and also how different things can be when the problem is on Europe's doorstep.

Europeans fear a flood of refugees, making them particularly sensitive to the possibility of a humanitarian disaster in North Africa.

...

And in a trademark Sarkozy move, he summoned world leaders on less than 24 hours notice to Paris for a summit Saturday to announce the intervention.

"France has decided to assume its role, its role before history," he proclaimed, as French warplanes staged their first sorties.

France broke a half-century tradition when it fired the first airstrike on Libyan tanks Saturday. Francois Heisbourg, of the International Institute of Security Studies, said it was the first time since the Suez expedition in 1956 that "the initiative has come from the French."

France fired "the opening shot of a war, that's the strategic significance. We now know we have crossed the line," he said.

...
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red55, Mar 20, 2011

#14
kluke Founding Member

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red55 said: ↑

This has to be handled carefully and prudently and so far it is, but there are a number of disturbing variables that could make the whole operation go south in a hurry.

1. A no-fly zone alone will not keep Qaddafi from dominating the ground war. Nor will it protect civilians from atrocities. The Srebrenica atrocity and much ethnic cleaning went on in Bosnia under a no-fly zone. Saddam held power for 10 years under a no-fly zone.

2.Libya is not a vital US interest. Most of its oil goes to Europe, which is why the French found some balls. The EU has a far more vital interest in Libya than we do. So does the Arab League, who have found some balls, also. We need to let them handle their own chit. Best scenario for us is to use the Tomahawks and stealth jets to cripple the radar, command, and control facilities and then hand this operation off to the Euros and the Friendly Rags in quick order.

3. The Pentagon is openly unenthusiastic about this operation. Getting stuck in a third war on the other side of the planet stretches them to the limit. Getting involved in a third war in a muslim country country increases the perception that we are fighting Islam instead of Al Qaeda. We must learn to listen to our generals.

4. Libya is very different from Egypt and Tunisia. Those nations were ruled by strongmen, like every other country in the Arab world, but they were not insular. They had open access to the media and international educations. The people of Libya have been raised under tightly-controlled media access and a steady education of anti-colonialism and anti-Americanism. Their hatred of Qadaffi does not really diminish their hatred of the West. British diplomats and some western journalists have been treated very badly in Benghazi by the rebels.

5. This is not a peaceful revolution as in Egypt and Tunisia, where the people were united and the military did not fire on its own people but instead supported them. This conflict is a Civil War in Libya. Large numbers of Libyans are siding with Qadaffi and the Libyan military still supports him and has fired upon its own civilians. The rebels are unorganized and ill-equipped but they are fighting the government forces. It is not yet clear if they can win. The US has learned its lesson about getting too involved in someone else's civil war. Eventually both sides turn upon you as an occupier as happened in Vietnam and Iraq.

6. We really don't know who we are dealing with in Libya. The rebels are disorganized badly and many of the factions are hostile to the West. If Qadaffi falls, there will be a power vacuum that could be filled by a radical government. Or the place could disintegrate into a Balkans type of mess that no one will win.

7. Qadaffi is not going to leave voluntarily. He has no friends left in the world that would take him anyway, except perhaps Chavez in Venezuela. This could get very bloody, he could use his mustard gas. The US is too overextended to expend too much military logistics and combat power in a place with so many issues and no clear vital US interest. Korea is vital to our Pacific strategy and if the little nutjob in Pyongyang starts a war while we are tied up in three conflicts, we would be in deep kim-chee.

8. We had to take this action to prevent what was going to be a bloodbath in Benghazi and Tripoli. But this is a Mediterranean/European show and the prudent action for us now is to steadily hand this over to the Brits, the French, the Spanish, the Italians, the UAE, Quatar, and Morroco. They haven't been shy about handing over Afghnaistan to us. Jordan and Saudi Arabia have modern jets, but are unlikely to deploy them out of their own country due to popular unrest at home.
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RED, I just read your 8 points three times and I wish I could find something to disagree with; but I can't. I think your spot on and it was well written.

I have no problem with shoving a few cruise misiles up Qadaffi's ass, and the stealth is to good not to use; but I really really don't want any more involvement. There is not a lot of upside in this for us and the potential of a lot of downside.

kluke, Mar 20, 2011

#15
SabanFan The voice of reason

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red55 said: ↑

We had to take this action to prevent what was going to be a bloodbath in Benghazi and Tripoli. But this is a Mediterranean/European show and the prudent action for us now is to steadily hand this over to the Brits, the French, the Spanish, the Italians, the UAE, Quatar, and Morroco. They haven't been shy about handing over Afghnaistan to us. Jordan and Saudi Arabia have modern jets, but are unlikely to deploy them out of their own country due to popular unrest at home.
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So why do we have to fire off a half trillion dollars worth of firepower at our expense? Why don't the Euros and Arabs pay for our power?

And why do Obama's people say that removing Qaddafi is not on the table? If that crackpot stays in power this was all for naught.

SabanFan, Mar 21, 2011

#16
Rex_B Geaux Time

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The only thing this bombing will do is entice more hatred for the West.

But don't worry we are safer for it. ugh.

Rex_B, Mar 21, 2011

#17
Rwilliams Veteran Member

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Why was the united states needed? The French have aircraft carriers. They even have one that flies traditional fighters. The Brits have smaller vstol carriers. Libya is on the mediterranean coast and easly reachable from European bases. Why can't the eu handle little Libya. We launched 150 missles at 600000$ each. Has our NATO allies become so weak that they can't handle Libya ?

Rwilliams, Mar 21, 2011

#18
LaSalleAve when in doubt, mumble

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TBTrumpet said: ↑

I'm waiting for all the "It's Bush's fault" people to start whinning about it.
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Nah, it's Reagan's. Should have killed the bastard in 86.

LaSalleAve, Mar 21, 2011

#19
SabanFan The voice of reason

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Rex_B said: ↑

The only thing this bombing will do is entice more hatred for the West.

But don't worry we are safer for it. ugh.
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I hate to break this to you but they can't hate us any more than they already do.

RWilliams said:

We launched 150 missles at 600000$ each. Has our NATO allies become so weak that they can't handle Libya ?
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Try $1.5MM each.

SabanFan, Mar 21, 2011

#20

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