Conservatives are correct this time.....

Discussion in 'Free Speech Alley' started by Biggles, Mar 15, 2003.

  1. Biggles

    Biggles Founding Member

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  2. Jetstorm

    Jetstorm Founding Member

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    Well, you'll get no argument from this religious conservative. Most of the ideas pitched in this draft are unecessary, ridiculous, and even frightening. That said, this looks like just a first draft of a legislative idea by some Level 4 bureaucrat in the Justice Dept. that probably will never see the light of day (thank God). And this just goes to show you Mr. Biggles that the Far Right is just as paranoid (in my opinion infinitely more paranoid) about individual rights and liberties than the Far Left (chiefly because the Far Right believes in far more individual rights such as the 2nd Amendment and the right to do whatever you want with your own private property).

    Now I've been asking this question of liberals for some time, and I can't get a straight answer, just vague generalities and obscene comments about Bush and Ashcroft. So maybe you can answer Mr. Biggles. Name ONE Constitutional right that was taken away by passage of the USA Patriot Act. I've read the thing backwards and forwards, and all I see that it did is it lessened the burden of proof for probable cause to obtain a federal warrant for electronic surveillence and allowed greater technology to be used in that surveillence. I see no massive rewriting of the 4th Amendment. The "enemy combatants" detained at Guantanomo Bay are not covered by Patriot because of their classification as enemy combatants and the fact that they are not U.S. citizens. Non-citizens DO NOT have the same rights as citizens, a precedent set long ago by the U.S. Supreme Court. While the Patriot Act may set a standard of "probable cause" you and some others don't agree with, it stays within the parameters of the 4th Amendment, which states, "The right of people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon PROBABLE CAUSE, supported by Oath and Affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." To me, that means that if the FBI suspects a few Arab Muslims (who happen to be U.S. citizens) living in a house to be building a bomb, they casually watch the house (Constitutional), do a background check of their immigration status and criminal records (Constitutional), and if they find a connection to any terrorists or questionable groups, they can, under Patriot, go to a judge and request a warrant, showing one or more of the persons' connections to questionable ties or suspected terror groups as Probable Cause. The judge mulls it over, grants the warrant, and then the FBI brings in all their cool listening devices and they find out for sure that there is a bomb being built in the house, then go in and arrest everybody. That's how it works and that, to me, stays within the parameters of the 4th Amendment.

    I guess it's up to your definition of Probable Cause. In any event, Patriot's constitutionality will be challenged sooner or later, and then it will be up to the Supreme Court to decide. And I'm sure we're all confident they will stick to the original intent of the Framers (yeah, right!)
     
  3. Bengal B

    Bengal B Founding Member

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    Where do we draw the line?

    Its scary that they can pass laws that allow the govenment to trample on our rights. After 9-11 the Patriot Act could be either good or bad depending on who has the power to do what to whom. Us baby boomers grew up fearing that the Soviet Union would nuke us at any moment and Russian kids feared us the same way but nobody was crazy enough to actually pull the trigger. Todays terrrorists have no fear or no limits. They will do anything to harm us that they are able to do. Long before 9-11 I feared that if it was so easy to smuggle tons of drugs into this country it would be just as easy to smuggle a few nukes. Hundreds of nuclear weapons are missing or unaccounted for after the breakup of the former Soviet Union.

    The rights of American citizens should be guaranteed even if they are suspected of plotting a a terrorist act, right to remain silent, right to have an attorney, yada yada but if non citizens who are in this country are planning to blow up a building, hijack a plane or otherwise do something to kill innocent citizens I would have no problem if they were quietly "terminated with extreme predjuduce"

    What the hell has this country come to when a Muslim FBI agent who refused to wear a wire to tape fellow Muslims is not only not fired but given a promotion. Who else can we get to infiltrate terrorist cells, Brittny Spears, Don King? Mike Tyson says he is a Muslim Maybe he would do it
     
  4. Bestbank Tiger

    Bestbank Tiger Founding Member

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    Hey Biggles, what image did you attach? I'm getting a weird message saying the porn filter blocked it.

    I'm not at my usual computer--I'm in Alabama right now.
     
  5. Biggles

    Biggles Founding Member

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    It is a ....

    sheep...

    perhaps that "is" porn in Bammy...
    ;p
     
  6. Bestbank Tiger

    Bestbank Tiger Founding Member

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    LOL, I know. I've been waiting for you to post that image so I could make that joke :)
     
  7. Biggles

    Biggles Founding Member

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    I figured I was...

    the set-up man...
     
  8. JD

    JD Founding Member

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  9. Grey Fox

    Grey Fox Freshman

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    Well come to George Orwell's 1984..........
    The Patriot Act in my opinion was a mistake, and passing another version is even more of a mistake. Sure, a slight bit of extra security at the cost of the freedoms that we were born and raised with. I cant wait for there to be another Joseph McCarthy another another witch hunt for those who did no wrong......
     

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