Could Bush have prevented 911 & Iraq? | Page 2 | TigerFan.com

CParso · Feb 12, 2005

How could you sit there and actually think that Kosovo was a joke. That was a well thought out and strategically fought war. Now those people were in need of a change, unlike Iraq. Iraq never had any mass graves like they did in Kosovo.
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Really? Wow, I could have sworn that we found several mass graves in Iraq - they happened to include women & children in them... If that matters to you. I suppose the president should have called and asked you whether you felt the Iraqis were in need of a change.

`Who is Bush to tell a country how to run a government? He has forced the US will against the wishes of the Iraqi people. They may be better off now (but who knows if the suicide attacks will ever end) that Sadam is in jail but who are we to tell a country how to operate? Don’t you think that if it were so bad in Iraq, the people would have risen up against Sadam and overthrew him? I think so.
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Who put Bush in charge of making sure the world was safe? Well, that happened way back around WWII, when, correct me if I'm wrong, Roosevelt announced that US would be a "world police". That includes saving the lives of millions of Iraqis and giving them the right to choose their leader. Contrary to your ignorance, these people did want a choice - if they didn't want to chose, would they have voted? AND ALSO, NO YOU IDIOT - JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T REVOLT DOESN'T MEAN YOU ARE IN FAVOR OF THE GOVERNMENT!

The main reasons Bush went into Iraq was b/c of a personal vendetta against the president of Iraq, he wanted to finish off what his dad couldn’t and he wanted to hook up his personal friends w/oil contracts so that they and their future generations could be set for the rest of their lives. At least when the Democrats pick a war, its of a good cause. Bush used the whole dictatorship and freeing the Iraqi people as an excuse. What do you have to say about that?
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You've watched Farenheit 9/11 one to many times. You can substatiate your ignorance with Michael Moore all you want, but that doesn't make you right.

G_MAN113 · Feb 12, 2005

olVENICEdog said:

Iraq never had any mass graves like they did in Kosovo.
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You want to rethink that one before you really get hammered on it?

ExoticGlass1 · Feb 12, 2005

G_MAN113 said:

You want to rethink that one before you really get hammered on it?
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i think hes talking about the numbers in the graves not that they didn't exist.

CParso · Feb 12, 2005

I consider hundreds of men, women & children shot in the head & thrown into a pit, then covered up - a mass grave.

G_MAN113 · Feb 12, 2005

ExoticGlass1 said:

i think hes talking about the numbers in the graves not that they didn't exist.
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I see.

So let me get this straight...a mass grave with only, say, 500 people in it
is a whole lot more acceptable than one that has 1000 people?

It's not a question of matter of degrees...a mass grave is a mass grave, no matter how many people are in it.

TigerFan23 · Feb 12, 2005

As for Iraq, I think if the Democrats were in charge of the war it would have been over by now. The republicans are warmongers but they are not organized very well. The Dems. would have fought a smarter, cleaner, safer war. If you think about it, you know im right.
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The Dems would have fought a smarter, cleaner, and safer war, huh? Way to denigrate the sacrifices being made by our servicemembers over there. Do you think they really want to hear who could've fought this war better? So are you saying that our Marines, soldiers, sailors and airmen over there have done a poor job? Why don't you tell that to the Marines who made it to Baghdad in two weeks and tore down the statue of Saddam. Why don't you tell that to the Marines who battled it out in Fallujah. Why don't you tell that to the soldiers who caught Saddam. Why don't you tell that to the 19 year old who didn't live to see 20. I could go on and on and on. The fact of the matter is, these are the men and women who are really fighting this war, not Republicans or Democrats or any other armchair politicians who think they know the first thing about warfare. They are the ones risking their lives in Iraq and Afghanistan so somebody like you can question their actions. They are the ones who willingly left behind a life, friends, and family to fight a war they knew would be unpopular. And why did they do this? Because they knew that this war wasn't about oil or personal vendettas. It was about stopping the spread of tyranny and terrorism. It was about preventing the chance of another attack on our own soil. It was about preventing a sicko like Saddam Hussein from murdering his own people. As reasonable people, we have a humanitarian duty to look out for our fellow man.

You have no clue if the Dems would've run this war better or not. You can't expect to go into war with a concrete plan and be able to carry that plan out to the T. There are a few things called uncertainty, friction, and the fog of war (MarineTiger and saltyone should know what I'm talking about here). These elements are essential when considering fighting a war. You have to improvise, adapt, and overcome. I don't think anyone could've foreseen the type of insurgency we are seeing in Iraq right now. And it's not Iraqi insurgents we're fighting over there, but rather those who have slipped over the border to fight us. Hell, the mastermind over there is from Jordan. War is hell and it's not supposed to be easy. It's a violent clash of wills with each side imposing its self on the other.

Honestly, I wonder how people with views such as yours can call themselves an American. I think Thomas Paine said it best: "Those who expect to reap the blessings of liberty must undergo the fatigues of supporting it."

MFn G I M P · Feb 12, 2005

Iraq never had any mass graves like they did in Kosovo.
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Let's see, Iraq had no mass graves? Babies Found in Iraqi Mass Graves

The victims are believed to be Kurds killed in 1987-88, their bodies bulldozed into the graves after being summarily shot dead. One trench contains only women and children while another contains only men.

The body of one woman was found still clutching a baby. The infant had been shot in the back of the head and the woman in the face.

"The youngest foetus we have was 18 to 20 foetal weeks," said US investigating anthropologist P Willey.

"Tiny bones, femurs - thighbones the size of a matchstick."

Mr Kehoe investigated mass graves in the Balkans for five years but those burials mainly involved men of fighting age and the Iraqi finds were quite different, he said.

"I've been doing grave sites for a long time, but I've never seen anything like this, women and children executed for no apparent reason," he said.
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Mr Kehoe said that work to uncover graves around Iraq, where about 300,000 people are thought to have been killed during Saddam Hussein's regime, was slow as experienced European investigators were not taking part.
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Horrors of Iraqs Mass Graves

Mass graves have been found in almost every major province. Some of them are group specific (one has been found to house Da’wa party members and another one for Islamic Action Organization adherents). Some are age specific. Even the children were not spared. There is no need to go into detailed descriptions of the sites and relate stories of those lucky few who fled only to tell almost unbelievable tales. The real problem lies in the fact that such stories are becoming mundane and have lost their position as the number one news story, having been “breaking news” items just a few days after the war.
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If you want to talk about the sheer numbers killed by Saddam, from the same site as above quote

Official Iraqi documents recovered after the fall of Saddam’s regime suggest a staggering 5 million executions were made during Ba’ath era alone. Over 10 million were also imprisoned. They were all Shi’ite save a small percentage of Kurds. It is also very interesting to note that after the 1991 Shi’ite uprising over 300,000 were killed or captured never to be seen again, but there were no injured.
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From Amnesty International

Tens of thousands, of people have "disappeared" in Iraq. "Disappearances" were particularly widespread during the Iran-Iraq war from 1980 to 1988. In the first 10 days of August 1983, an estimated 8,000 Kurds of the Barzani clan, all males aged between 8 and 70, were arrested in the province of Arbil and have not been seen since. In early 1988, during "Operation Anfal" in Iraqi Kurdistan, entire Kurdish families "disappeared" in hundreds of villages after they were rounded up by government forces. Immediately after the 1991 Gulf War, when Iraqi government forces crushed the uprisings led by the Shi'a in the south and the Kurds in the north, thousands more Iraqis "disappeared".
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MFn G I M P · Feb 12, 2005

olVENICEdog said:

Don’t you think that if it were so bad in Iraq, the people would have risen up against Sadam and overthrew him? I think so.
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Well following the Persian Gulf War the Iraqi people tried to overthrow Saddam but it was crushed and many people were killed. You really should try looking up some information before you post something as stupid as you just did.

From the Human Rights Watch

When the March 1991 uprising confronted his regime with the most serious internal challenge it had ever faced, government forces responded with atrocities on a predictably massive scale. The human rights repercussions continue to be felt throughout the country.

In their attempts to retake cities, and after consolidating control, loyalist forces killed thousands of unarmed civilians by firing indiscriminately into residential areas; executing young people on the streets, in homes and in hospitals; rounding up suspects, especially young men, during house-to-house searches, and arresting them without charge or shooting them en masse; and using helicopters to attack unarmed civilians as they fled the cities.

One year later, the fate of thousands of Kurds and Shi'a who were seized during the suppression of the uprising remains unknown. While many are believed to be in detention, the government has provided little information about their location and legal status.
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One year ago [1991], towns and cities across northern and southern Iraq rose up in revolt against the government of President Saddam Hussein. In the weeks that followed, tens of thousands of civilians were killed as security forces crushed the most serious internal threat of Saddam's 12-year rule, and thousands more subsequently perished during one of the largest and most precipitous flights of refugees in modern times. . .

The 1991 uprising was the most serious internal challenge Saddam Hussein has had to face during his twelve years in power. Every major city in the north and south of the country except Mosul fell into the hands of rebels and their sympathizers. Iraqi soldiers, confronted with a popular uprising immediately after being routed in the Gulf war, deserted or defected by the thousands. The survival of the regime was very much in doubt for about two weeks until loyalist troops, led by the elite Republican Guard, began finally to extinguish the insurrection city by city. By the time it was over, thousands of civilians and government forces had been killed[74] and countless atrocities had been committed by both sides.The turmoil began in Basra on March 1, one day after the Gulf war cease-fire, and spread within days to Karbala, Najaf, Hilla, al-Nasiriyya, al-Amara, Samawa, Kut, and Diwaniyya C that is, to all of the largest cities of southern Iraq. Smaller cities, such as Suq al-Shuyoukh near al-Nasiriyya, and al-Zubayr near Basra, were also swept up in the revolt.

The rebellion in the north erupted on or about March 4 in the town of Rania, northwest of Suleimaniyya. Within ten days, the Kurds controlled every city in the north except Kirkuk and Mosul. Their greatest triumph C the capture of Kirkuk C came on about April 20.

The Kurdish uprising collapsed even more quickly than it began. After ousting the pesh merga from Kirkuk on March 28 and 29, the Iraqi army rolled into Dahuk and Irbil on March 30, Zakho on April 1, and Suleimaniyya, the last important town held by the rebels, over the next two days.

In the south, the government had quelled all but scattered resistance by the end of March. On April 5, Iraq's ruling Revolutionary Command Council (RCC) announced "the complete crushing of acts of sedition, sabotage, and rioting in all towns of Iraq."
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TigerEducated · Feb 13, 2005

olVENICEdog said:

TigerEducated said:

Lets see here specialeducated, do me a favor better yet do your self a favor and add up all of the American casualties from the Iran Hostage Crisis, Mogadishu & Somalia and compare them to the # of dead American soldiers from the 2 Iraqi wars (that both of the Bush's are responsible for) and I am willing to bet that it isn't even close big mouth. Throw in Kosovo if you want to.

How could you sit there and actually think that Kosovo was a joke. That was a well thought out and strategically fought war. Now those people were in need of a change, unlike Iraq. Iraq never had any mass graves like they did in Kosovo.
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Well...Seeing as how the Iran Hostage Crisis never included us using military might to release them or set them free (due to Democratic executive COWARDICE), or the fact that Clinton backed out with his tail between his legs from Mogadishu allowing America to be tarnished internationally, and throwing in Kosovo was a joke...

Clinton waffled back and forth for WEEKS before finally being persuaded to only allowing support through the air and logistics...We operated through the United Nations...and Clinton was SO afraid of risking himself to political exposure he went back and forth IN FRONT OF THE MEDIA on the issue.

Basically, they prove one point when it comes to a situation that dictates forceful responses: THEY ARE COWARDS.

Oh, by the way...The United Nations in resolutions that were crafted by Clinton himself vowed that were those resolutions violated by Hussein and his Baathist regime, FORCE WAS MANDATED TO REMOVE HIM FROM POWER AS WELL AS HIS REGIME. He was in violation of them since at least 1998...and I can link ALL DAMN DAY IF YOU LIKE, DUMBASS...

You are a revisionist historian, a complete fool, and an ideological troglodyte who conjures up theories based on whatever incense you're burning to cover up the bongsmoke smell in your garage while awaiting the wife's arrival from bridge...and you bore me...

Get over yourself...

That's what I have to say about that...You dolt.
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MFn G I M P · Feb 13, 2005

olVENICEdog said:

How could you sit there and actually think that Kosovo was a joke. That was a well thought out and strategically fought war. Now those people were in need of a change, unlike Iraq. Iraq never had any mass graves like they did in Kosovo.
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Did you know that Clinton was never given the authority to bomb Kosovo by the US Congress? Kosovo War

. . .on April 28, 1999, the House of Representatives rejected a resolution that would have authorized the President to conduct military air operations and missile strikes in cooperation with NATO against Yugoslavia. It did so by a tie 213-213 vote. . . This was the first time in U.S. history that a Congress had actually voted to deny a President the authority he requested to fight a war. But the vote made no difference to the President. He continued to fight the war and ignored the action that the House of Representatives had taken. . . the key resolution which would have given the President authority to continue the war past sixty days failed to pass by a tie 213-213 vote. Thus, as the war continued it was clear that the President did not have the constitutional authority to have initiated the war, nor the statutory authority to keep fighting past the sixty day by which the WPR mandated termination.
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I would still like to know why the people of Kosovo deserved to be liberated but the Iraqis didn't. I have no problem that Clinton liberated Kosovo because it gave people freedom they once did not have. However, what you don't hear about is all of the violence that is still ocurring in Kosovo. Apparently the violence was so bad, 5 years after the bombing, that the UN called for an "immediate halt to Kosovo violence

"He [Kofi Annan] urges all parties involved to bring an immediate halt to the violence, which jeopardizes the stability of Kosovo and the security of all its people," the statement added.
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