great posts Salty. BTW I enjoyed the fellowship. next time it's on me.

I admire you trying to explain stuff to Chaos and other's but I think it's falling on deaf ears.

i will say this on the "gay" issue. Like Salty said, it's never been proven that these people are born this way. if they have rights, then so should people who practice all other manner of sexual perversions.

typically, just to get "rights" a guy could walk into a courthouse to get a marriage license for him and his dog. Now before you laugh, look at this.

man: I'm here to get a marriage license for my dog and me
county official: You cant do that a marriage license is only issued to a woman and a man who are going to get married.
man: well sir the supreme court passed a law stating that anyone that loves each other may enter into wedlock as seen by the state. So I want to marry my dog.
county official: you cant do that, that law doesnt mean animals.
man: why not? I love my dog, you love your dog dont you?
county official: well yes but not in that way.
Man: well i was born this way and what we have is "special" :dis:
county official: I am sorry sir I cannot issue a marriage license for you or your dog based on the assumption that you were born with a bestality fetish. It's just not done. No laws exist to condone this.
man: why not? two gay men can get married and that's a chosen lifestyle isnt it?
county official: that's different.
man: how so?
county official: they are human and feel affection for one another.
man: well i still love my dog I think i should be allowed to marry him.
county official: take it up with the courts.

what's the difference? NONE homoseuality isn't a disease and it isn't inherited, or anything else. It's a lifestyle. period. and people WOULD put up with all manner of BS to live their lifestyle.

EVEN if they were born this way,,,,,, there would be others born that loved their dog. should we let them marry? i don't think so. if your gay, it's not my problem it's yours. Life's not fair. never has been never will be. If you do or practice something that society deems detrimental to all of society then it's just your freakin bad luck. sorry. life sucks, no sympathy here. some people are born with an underdeveloped brain and are retarded. Retarded people fall in love. they do I know I had an aunt that was, she had the mind of a 4 year old. However, when she grew up she had all the physical attributes of any other grown woman. Now we know she was born that way and it can be passed on genetically. So should she have rights? to marry? if retarded people were able to fight for themselves and their rights would they fight for marriage rights? the right to have children>? I dont know but i do know its not allowed YET!

babies die daily, there are other things to feel bad about other than the poor gay people. What about the poor rapists? the gay community does fine without your help. it shouldnt even be a political issue, until they start demenading rights other than the one's they have. I dont really want my tax dollars to support their lifestyle. I prefer it be difficult to be gay. i dont look down on them but I don't really think they should guide the majority of this nation when they are so few. let them enjoy the rights every single american has in this country. You dont see single people screaming for marriage rights because they are single and being discriminated agaisnt do you? well why not?

maybe we should help subsidize beastality too>? sure why not it's just a lifestyle.
Gays are not a race, you cant choose your race, but you can choose to live gay.

And I assume you found them on probush.com?

So you are countering his claims that the Iraq's are not glad we did what we did (backed up by liberal websites) with a claim that they are glad we did what we did (backed up by a conservative website)? So probush.com has pictures that show only good things happening in Iraq?

In other news, the moon is not made out of cheese and chimps like banana's.

Well there needs to be some website that will show all the good we're doing in Iraq, since every other website seems content with showing all the bad. Why people are so enamored with bad news, I will never know. :dis: Or they're just intent on making Bush look terrible. Heaven forbid we show that his decision to invade Iraq has led to a better life for Iraqis. But you know, they're right. I'm sure the Iraqis didn't want to be able to vote in an election where the winner wouldn't get 100% of the votes regardless of how people voted. Oh yeah, and I'm sure women over there absolutely HATE the fact that they can vote now.

It is incredibly faulty logic to lump gays in with people like rapists, child molesters, etc. Why? Because, unlike the other examples you referred to, homosexual relationships take place between to willing individuals. The bottom line is, if two gay people decide to hook-up, it affects absolutely NO ONE negatively. So long as they aren’t displaying their affection publicly (something I think gays and hetero’s alike should not do), there is NO detriment to anyone. The backbone of my political viewpoint (in a social sense) is simply this: You have the freedom to do whatever you want, so long as you are not imposing on the freedoms and rights of another individual. Explain to me how homosexuality infringes upon the rights of, or even inconveniences, anyone else.

First of all, I am challenging you to produce just a shred of scientific evidence that says they’re not born that way, since you’re so sure of it.


Secondly, how does it affect your day-to-day life if someone wants to marry someone or something that is different from what YOU think it should be? YOU have NO place to make personal decisions for other people. And please, spare me this ‘sanctity of marriage’ garbage. It’s an utter joke to hear that phrase in a country where the divorce rate is through the roof and where people can get married by Elvis impersonators at drive-through services.

Ok then, why are you making it yours by worrying about it? How does it become your problem if they’re married. Explain.

Bad luck? I thought homosexuality was a choice, like you said. How can it be bad luck if you choose it? Beware your logical flaws.


Secondly, ‘society’ does not deem homosexuality to be ‘detrimental to all of society’. Maybe your church and or/beliefs do. But you must bear in mind that society exists well beyond that boundary. Ban it in your church, or your religion, or your family, or wherever. But don’t think that you have the right to control whatever others desire that does not affect you. Until you can objectively (not subjectively) prove what detriment homosexuality has on society, your assertions are completely false.

You’re absolutely right. It should not be a political issue. Politics needs to stay the hell out of people’s personal lives.

Guess what? I really don’t want my tax dollars to support low-life individuals like Tom DeLay or Kathleen Blanco. But, as you iterated, life is not fair. Oftentimes we must accept things that we don’t agree with for the greater good. It’s like soldiers who go to war to protect the rights of Americans who wish to speak out against them.

First of all, yes, you do look down on them. Very much so, in fact. Everything that you’ve stated here alludes to your belief that they are not equal citizens, and should be treated differently from others.


Second of all, what do you mean, ‘guide the majority of this nation’? What, exactly, are they guiding? And where are they guiding it/them? I honestly do not understand what this is supposed to mean. It sounds very misguided.

But wait a minute, if they’re just as bad as rapists and child molesters, shouldn’t their rights be revoked? You’ve got some serious inconsistencies being exposed.

Ok, no offense, but I am trying to answer this without laughing. Hey, you also don’t see citizens that don’t have Native American bloodlines screaming for the tax breaks that those with native ancestry get, do you? Well, why not? Try because they’re not Native American. You don’t hear me screaming about not getting a social security check, do you? Well, why not? How about because I am not retired, nor am I elderly? I have to tell you man, in the future, if you should engage in a similar argument as this one with someone else, please, avoid that analogy at all costs.

Let me ask you something. The first time you saw a girl that you liked, was it an act of volition? Did you think to yourself, ‘Hmmm…that guy is attractive. So is that girl. Well, I don’t want to be gay, so I’ll ask the girl out’? If you are so sure that homosexuality is a choice, then that would necessarily indicate that all humans are then attracted to both sexes. I’m guessing you never posed such a question to yourself, you were just attracted to women. Therefore, if you were just ‘born’ that way, how can you possibly argue that homosexuals are not? Talk about a double standard. Your argument seems to be based purely on emotion, not the slightest amount of reason.


What about if people took your stance on homosexuality and applied it to auto racing? It can easily be argued that racing is potentially much more dangerous to people, or even society in general. Are you aware of the rash of street-drag incidents/deaths that occurred right after people saw ‘The Fast & The Furious”? Certainly, you didn’t choose to like auto-racing. Maybe your exposure to it at an early age sparked your interest. I’m not sure. But you were born with the necessary cognitive abilities to enjoy it. And yes, you chose to pursue it after that. But I’ve been exposed to it probably more than you think. And I just flat out do not enjoy it. Same thing goes with onions and mushrooms. I just cannot stand the way they taste, so I do not eat them. I never made the choice to dislike them, it’s just always been that way. Likewise, I never made the choice to like the foods that I do. You see, wants and desires are innate. We are born with them, whether you like it or not.


Again, I would like to know if you personally know any homosexuals. If so, take the time to ask them about how unbearably difficult of a thing it is to come to terms with. Despite you misguided view that society encourages people to be gay, to a child or adolescent, it is absolutely a tortureous thing to deal with. Further, there are oftentimes certain physical traits that accompany homosexuals (such as lisps, or effeminate disposition in males). This is yet another strong case for the argument that it is innate. Young children growing up are picked on for everything under the sun. Facial features, obesity, family income, the list goes on and on. I’ve personally seen boys get absolutely decimated for having features that other boys link to homosexuality. Other things that children tease each other about usually roll off their backs in due time. But can you imagine children (who are incredibly harsh these days) teasing you about being gay, and simultaneously questioning whether or not that is the case? Is that really the kind of thing a 10-year old would choose to deal with? I don’t think so. So if you do happen to know any homosexuals, ask them if they were ever attracted to females.

That's easy, and it's got nothing to do with politics. Shock value. That's hardly justification for it, that's just the way people have been programmed. It's also the main reason that i do not watch network news. In fact, I consider network news to be one of the biggest threats to our society.

Here's an excerpt from a very interesting article addressing the question of if, in fact, this invasion will transform Iraq into the Garden of Eden that Bush would have us believe it will be. You might say that some of the suggestions are too elaborate. But if you consider things in that region from a historical perspective, they certainly are not.

This article was written some time ago, before the rise to power of a Kurdish president and Shia prime minister. And given Iran's worsening relationship with us, the guy may be on to something.

i would be fine with people marrying their dogs. or multiple wives, or fire hydrants. doesnt matter.

i have explained the solution to this gay marriage thing a million times. leave marriage to churches. treat it like communion or baptism. the government shouldnt care one bit who is in a relationship with who.

marriage is the biggest non-issue in the universe. people on both sides who make it a big issue are idiots. lets say you are never allowed to be married. so what. i dated a girl for 5 years once. we were basically married, we lived together for years. we didnt fill out any government forms, and it made no difference.

the government needs to remove itself completely from religious issues like marriage. homos need to chill out and just concentrate on giving each other reach-arounds and quit worrying about marriage. religious zealots too.

Chaos,

I just took the test. Somehow, I don't think I passed. This was the first time to take it and I was honest to myself on all of the questions. :hihi:

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz-score/quiz.php

[font=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]ACCORDING TO YOUR ANSWERS,[/font]​

[font=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]The[/font][font=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif] political description that ​

fits you best is...[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[/font]​

[font=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]CONSERVATIVE[/font][/font]​

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/font][/font]​

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]CONSERVATIVES[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] tend to favor economic freedom, but frequently[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]support laws to restrict personal behavior that violates "traditional[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]​

values." They oppose excessive government control of business,[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]while endorsing government action to defend morality and the[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]traditional family structure. Conservatives usually support a strong [/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]military, oppose bureaucracy and high taxes, favor a free-market [/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]economy, and endorse strong law enforcement.[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The RED DOT on the Chart shows where you fit on the political map.[/font]​

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz-score/draw.php?p=3&e=7​

You are what you are. They're not trying to trick people into admitting that they're libertarians. That's something you would expect from a republican website. Ohh just kidding! <cheapshot>:hihi:

This is what I got, but I already knew that!:thumb:

[font=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]ACCORDING TO YOUR ANSWERS,[/font]​

[font=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]The[/font][font=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif] political description that ​

fits you best is...[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[/font]​

[font=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/font][/font][font=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]LIBERTARIAN[/font][/font]​

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]LIBERTARIANS[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] support maximum liberty in both personal and [/font]​

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]economic matters. They advocate a much smaller government; one[/font]​

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]that is limited to protecting individuals from coercion and violence.[/font]​

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Libertarians tend to embrace individual responsibility, oppose[/font]​

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]government bureaucracy and taxes, promote private charity, tolerate[/font]​

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]diverse lifestyles, support the free market, and defend civil liberties.[/font]​

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The RED DOT on the Chart shows where you fit on the political map.[/font]​

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz-score/draw.php?p=10&e=6

I wonder how a centrist thinks. What would he be, a mindless robot with no opinions about anything?

perhaps just answers 'M' on most of the questions.