I wonder who would win in a game, The All Americans or the Academic All Americans? AA 179 :lsug: AAA 0 TU Who gives a poop if the guy is smart. Dress him up, fix his grades and get him on the field. TD's put people in the stands not A+'s. Thats why Tulane is so great in every sport. :wink:
Hornung is usually a great guy, but his statement was idiotic (not racist really, just idiotic). It does nothing except reinforce the myth that you must choose between top-quality academics and top-quality athletics; you can have one or the other, but you can't have both. Ridiculous. And until this myth is finally shredded and shot down, the NCAA will continue to be plagued by problems with academic credibility. Notre Dame doesn't need to change jack about their academic standards, and the belief that they are somehow at a disadvantage because of them is laughable. We are talking about Notre Dame here, after all. A few other myths that I see creeping up in his comments and this discussion that also need to be shot down: -Black athletes are just naturally better than white athletes. Absolutely not a shred of scientific evidence to support that conclusion. And before you repeat that tired old mantra "Well blacks make up a disproportionate number of college and professional football and basketball players," first of all, a few stats I looked up on race and sports about three years ago, IIRC, showed that in football, 51% of college football players and 54% of NFL players were black (hardly disproportionate, unless you are expecting the NFL and college football to "look like America"). Basketball is a little more unbalanced, with 58% of college b-ball players and 68% of NBA players black, and a sizeable chunk of the white players, both college, and pro, are from foreign countries. But I would submit that it is because of other reasons than that blacks make up the majority of basketball players. Basketball, like most sports in our society has increasingly become an urbanized, selective demographic game. White kids simply aren't playing the game like they used to; they are gravitating more towards other sports like baseball and soccer. And, surprise, surprise, sports like baseball, soccer, and ice hockey are dominated by whites. Are whites just naturally better at these sports than blacks? I doubt it. Basketball is just the natural game for poor, urban folks (who tend to be black) to play. All you need is a hard surface (parking lot), a ball, two goals, and ten kids, and hop to. They really don't start playing football until they get to junior high school and get access to coaching, organization, equipment, and green space, but they immerse in football once they get there, because it is the most popular sport in America right now. -Black athletes good in sports are stupid, and incapable of meeting high academic standards. Ridiculous, racist belief. I've met plenty of good, D1-A caliber black football and basketball players. Yes, some were so stupid they couldn't walk and chew gum at the same time, and had no business being anywhere near a college campus except for the fact that they could run a 4.4 forty-yard dash or had a sweet jumpshot. But most of the ones I've met were actually very bright, or at least could think and reason at a level commensurate with their age. Plenty of good athletes on our LSU teams are also good students; Collis Temple III getting his Ph.D. and Marcus Spears having one of the highest GPA's on the football team come to mind. Notre Dame's football team, with those impossibly high academic standards, is still 55% black. Duke doesn't seem to have a problem graduating 90% of it's basketball players, and they dominate in the sport. Again, show me something grounded in FACT with EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE before blanket stereotypes are made. The reason most black athletes don't reach their full academic potential is because A) they tend to spend most of their lives in inferior education systems that fail to properly train them for college or life, and B) it's not expected of them. Education just isn't valued like it should be in most inner-city black neighborhoods, and kids are told from the time they are old enough to comprehend spoken word that sports is their only shot at getting out of the 'hood. So they spend their free time shooting hoops instead of studying algebra. And when they get to college, they often end up at places where no one expects them to be anything more than a dumb jock; they just get passed on through to the NBA or NFL without a degree. Absolutely shameful. Schools with high academic standards are doomed to failure in athletics- Where to even begin? Rice wins the CWS. Duke is in the Final Four. St. Joseph's and Stanford both almost went undefeated in basketball this season. LSU wins the SEC Championship and the Sugar Bowl in 2001 with the 2nd highest graduation rate in the SEC. I could go on and on and on. True, their are plenty of schools that cheat to win, and there are plenty of top programs whose graduation rates and academic reputations are an embarassment to college sports (Miami, Florida State, and Arkansas quickly pop to mind). And unfortunately, until the NCAA starts penalizing schools for sorry graduation rates and low GPAs (something I fully support, by the way) there will always be schools who will try to cut corners or use young athletes shamelessly to make money without taking care of them academically. And they will just tear down the good work of other schools trying to change the culture we have today. Notre Dame needs to tell Hornung to stuff it on this one. They are not doing anything wrong, and I still think Willingham turns that program around.
no evidence? ever watched a marathon? i would like to see a white of european descent beat a good kenyan or ethiopian at a marathon. i would like to see an east african win the worlds strongest man. they cant. it is always northern europeans, germans, americans from that gene pool, or samoans. i would like to see a white man win the world record at the 100 meters. not gonna happen. i would like to see a white man be in the top 5 vertical leapers in the NBA. unlikely. blacks, and specifically blacks of western african heritage, are faster and jump higher. northern europeans and scandinavians have raw size and power. chinese are smaller, maybe they are better gymnasts, i dunno. the point is there are definite genetic differences between the races, and that makes for difference in ability in sports. when are you gonna find a white reciever like randy moss or terrell owens? you might, but it is far less likely. a white guy with the raw physical tools of terrell owens, not much chance of that. yeah, don beebe is fast, whoopeee, jason sehorn is wildly overrated. there are a lot of whites in football, but they are not quality rbs or wrs. they are huge strongmen like kyle turley. the fact is that on average blacks are superior at some skills. i don't see what keeps us from admitting that blacks are superior at speed and agility. ok, lets assume we cant admit anyone is superior at anything, because it is politically incorrect. then how can we explain kenyans? these guys don't just win marathons. they destroy everyone. kenyans are lean, have big lungs, and a large amount of slow twitch muscle fibers. you arent gonna beat em in a 10 miler. they are genetically superior. is that so hard to admit? but kenyans and their eastern african pals will get trounced in sprints vs american blacks, who are generally of western african descent. the american blacks have more powerful speedy legs, and are bulkier and more explosive. so the fact is there is racial superiority in sports. it comes down to what sport you are doing. you want a swimmer? maybe you want a tall lean caucasian with broad shoulders. want a running back? dont look in ireland, head for ghana. blacks are positively superior athletes, if you are looking for WRs and rbs and safeties and cornerbacks. to deny that is crazy.
We're talking about apples and oranges here. We all have different strengths and weaknesses in our total physical build, I don't deny that. And yes, I am willing to concede that a little micro-evolution takes place and shapes and adapts a group of people to the land they live on. I am fully aware of the dominance of the East Africans in marathons and distance events at the Olympics and that that is a by-product of where they live and how they developed as a people. BUT, those conditions are not unique to East Africa. Those conditions can be found elsewhere, and I imagine there are groups of people out there who would also make great distance runners. And where were all the Kenyans prior to the '60s in the marathons and distance events? They were there, but so were some white people who could be them. Perhaps distance running for health and recreation is not as popular as it used to be in the lazy, decadent West. Books have been written about how American kids are not as athletic as they used to be because they are spoiled by the creature comforts of our consumer society and would rather play video games than go out and shoot hoops (at least in the suburbs). Also, not all Northern Europeans are herculean strongmen. Plenty of big, fat, strong black linemen on the LSU football team. How do we explain that? Also, plenty of fast white guys in this world, playing soccer in Europe. Perhaps they would make great football players? We may never know. But we do know that fast white guys exist, guys like Eddie McAffrey, Don Beebe, Jason Sehorn (over-rated?!?! One of the best corners in the league before multiple knee injuries crippled him) and hopefully LSU's own Jack Hunt will get added to that list. And they dominated the game back in the day; things weren't necessarily slower back in the '50s, although the players were smaller. Fast white people exist. White running backs exist, but to be blunt, blacks have become so entrenched at the position that a lot of white folks perfectly able to play running back in college and the NFL get ignored by recruiters or end up being switched to another position. This is where I worry about the "certain races play certain positions" stuff becoming entrenched dogma in football. While being born in a certain place, to a certain group of people, might make you more likely to inherit a certain special ability or trait, it is by no means a guarantee. And I would be willing to submit that the reasons for it are much more the fault of social and cultural norms and trends. Sports Illustrated did a huge feature story on this a few years back called "Whatever Happened to the White Athlete?" and Archie Manning wrote a book about his theories as to why white kids don't play the games of football and basketball as much as when he was a kid. You cannot deny that society plays a huge role in determining the racial participation in sports these days.
of course there are exceptions. a woman won the dunk contest. there are tubby monster blacks on the offensive lines. and there are quick white guys on the occasional track relay team. but when the truly elites at a skill are considered, they become less likely to be exceptions to the rule. i can predict with certainty that a sprint gold medal in athens will not go to white man. nor will any running gold medals of any distance. sure there may be a german guy makes the finals, but he will lose. and a white guy will probably win the gold at discus. the more elite the level of competittion, the more likely the genetically superior races will win. and i watch english premier league, and there are some damn fast white guys playing soccer. and i myself am a white super speedster, and i can outrun most white guys in baton rouge rec soccer leagues. but blacks are on a higher plane. in england the whites are fast, but the super speed monsters have names like Obafemi and come from africa. or thierry henry of arsenal, black, and faster than the beckhams and zidanes. and soccer in america is a white man's sport, but who is our world cup future savior? freddy adu, from ghana, west africa. sure, landon donovan is fast, but the freddy adus of the future are gonna be faster. is it cultural differences between races that give all the sprint world records to west africans? no. its genetic superiority.
Those who consider Hornung's comments as racist or insensitive prefer to keep their head buried in the sand instead of dealing with reality. Schools cannot compete in college football without black athletes ... and higher academic requirements does exclude many of these black athletes. I know the truth is sometimes painful to hear, but it shouldn't be ignored...
But which way should this problem be addressed is the question. There are two avenues here: A. The Self-Serving Quick Fix: Lower academic standards to allow kids in who have no business being at a school like Notre Dame, knowing they are ill-equipped to deal with the academic rigors of an elite college, just so you can win a few ball games, then when their eligibility is used up and they aren't anywhere close to graduating, just throw them away like garbage, perpetuating the cycle of young black athletes not reaching their full academic potential and allowing renegade programs (like Florida State and Miami) to continue to make a mockery of the phrase "student-athlete"; B. A Comprehensive, Well-Thought Out Solution: We start by improving the crappy education systems these young men often find themselves in, and working hard to change the culture that they grow up in, to be one that values excellence on and off the fields and courts of play, and actually prepare these kids for college and life, so that college coaches and academic adminstrators don't have to sell their souls to win football games. We encourage the parents and teachers and coaches of young, talented black athletes to start expecting, nay, demanding that they give their absolute best effort in the classroom. And, when they get on campus, instead of looking the other way while they don't go to class and cheat on tests, having academic experts, tutors, and mentors watching them and their progress towards a degree every day, making sure they are doing what they are supposed to. This solution will take longer (years, maybe decades) will cost more, and will not be as easy to implement. But it will also do the greatest good to the greatest number of people in the long run. But, I'm not optimistic that too many college coaches and admins won't take the easy way out on this one; too much short term gain to be had. I would also make the point TigerWins, that colleges can't win without good white athletes either. Does LSU win the national title this year without Jack Hunt, Matt Mauck, Stephen Peterman, Rodney Reed, Eric Edwards, etc., etc. Does Duke go to the Final Four without J.J. Reddick, or win it's national title of a few years back without Michael Dunleavy? And not all those kids are geniuses as well; anyone remember the struggles Ohio State had keeping Andy Katzenmoyer eligible? They also get excluded from schools like Notre Dame and Stanford.
Genetic superiority, martin? Who knew the "Master Race" would arise, not out of the Fatherland in central Europe, but out of the Gold Coast of Africa? I guess there was more to Jesse Owens gold medal at Berlin in 1936 than everyone thought. It was the "Master Race" showing those silly Germans who really has the genetic "Big Stick." SEIG HEIL, MON FUHRER!
Jet ... I don't disagree with alot of what you are saying, but I don't think that was Hornung's point. I believe he was only referring to how ND can be more competitve in football. Which is more likely to occur today in college football: (1) win a NC with predominately black athletes or (2) win a NC with predominately white athletes? I think we know that answer! There is a good reason why schools (like LSU) are winning college football NCs ... they accept the NCAA academic standards for athletes, which is much lower than their standard for non-athletes. I'm not sure what ND's standard is for athletes, but it is apparantly higher than the NCAA standard, which means they limit their pool of qualified athletes, both blacks and whites. That's why schools like Vandy, Duke, Tulane, etc. will rarely compete for NCs in football. In a perfect world, academic standards for athletes would be the same as for non-athletes. I've never understood why athletes get special consideration ... other than the fact it would be boring and little interest in watching a team like Vandy and Duke on a Saturday night in Tiger Stadium?
