Thanks a lot BB. I was merely using that as an example of how the gift of salvation works. But I forget you only deal in generalizations and not deductive reasoning. Your response is what I would have expected from martin and I have to give him credit for being civil. I understand what he saying about name calling. I too don't let name calling bother me and neither does my family. We know the truth and so what what anybody else thinks. You know, "Sticks and stones...." and in his defense, even though in a couple of his posts he has been demeaning, I have found him to generally be scornful of the beliefs, not the people, although sometimes it's hard to discern which he is talking about.
My post was not a generalization but merely an aside from the main topic of discussion in response to this: I posted it as a true life example of the ripoff scams you can get in the mail exploiting religion as well as gulliblity. I also deducted that some people would find it amusing. I can be as sarcastic as Martin when I want to be but I am one of your fellow believers. As a friend who is now dead once said you would have to be an idiot not to believe in God. If you believe and it turns out that there is no God at least you will have lived a decent life, but if you don't believe and there is a God then you are screwed for all eternity. No matter how good a person you were you might end up roasting in Hell for all Eternity being tormented by demons with very sharp pitchforks. And that is only one of the milder torments compared to some of the stuff in Dante's Inferno. If there is a Heaven there is also a Hell. Why? Because just as some people deserve to go to Heaven there are a lot of bastards that deserve every torment that Hell can give them.
In response to this, I would ask, "What else would you expect?" As someone who has not only turned his back but completely denied the existence of a God or a Savior, why would you expect to reap anything but a total separation from God in the afterlife. If I believed as you do, I would certainly hope that there is nothing else after this. If you deny the existence of God and Jesus, then do you also deny the existence of the apostles, of Paul, of Herod and Pilate, of Abraham and Moses? Do you deny the historical facts of the Bible? In 1 Corinthians Paul says that "If (Jesus and) the resurrection is a lie, then we (believers) are to be pitied above all men." I know you don't believe in the Bible or it's teachings so I won't really quote it too much but it addresses the very issue of nonbelievers. The people listed above all lived and some of them actually lived with and walked with Christ and witnessed His death and resurrection. If TRUE Christianity is a lie, then why would so many people have allowed themselves to die so brutally in its name? You reckon that after 2000 years with all the technological advances someone would have figured it out by now and exposed it. But it hasn't has it? Paul was one of the biggest persecutors of Christians yet Jesus turned him into its chief spokesman and teacher. If Christainity was (is) a lie, then how do you explain Constantine's adoption of it when it was still a minor phenomenon and subsequent power in the governing of the world, for a time anyway? And I agree with what you say about in religion people call the shots, twisting the teachings or changing them to conform with what THEY want, what fits THEIR desires and needs. I stated this in one of my earlier replies to rickyd. That's why I go to a nondenominational church. I didn't know it til this morning but our music minister used to be a Catholic. Catholicism is a religion. Presbyterianism is a religion. Lutheranism is a religion. Pentacostalism is a religion. Southern Baptist is a religion. Calvinism is a religion. All of these religions have rules and certain things and rituals that they require you to do and follow. None of this is true Christianity. A true Christian gets his teaching from the Bible and knows that the only way to salvation is to accept Jesus as Savior and turn his back on this world, living "in the world', not "by the world" as Paul says. A true Christian knows that all that Jesus requires of them is that they accept His gift and then live their live as best they can according to the way He teaches and lived. He knows that HOW he lives his life and the example he sets for others is the true testimony of his Christianity, not what he says or the rituals he follows. The only "ritual" he follows is that of the Last Supper and the celebration of the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross. I know that this will sound like a contradiction but to be a TRUE Christian is the easiest thing in the world yet the hardest. It's easy because you have peace, you know what is the right thing to do and it's easy to do it. It is hard because people laugh at and ridicule you for your beliefs. It is hard because often you have to deny yourself things you want. You know your life is a life of service and sacrifice to and for others. You know your life is different from others and it may even cost you friends and relatives, maybe even your life. I've said it before that not everybody who proclaims to be a Christian is one. Just because someone claims to be one does not necessarily make them one. Without the actions called for in conjunction with that claim, it is a hollow statement. James 4 says, " faith without deeds is dead." So, just like the man in my example who refuses to eat the food in front of him and he starves to death, according to the Bible and what I believe, anyone refusing to accept Gods gift will suffer in Hell for eternity, for eternity is how long we are dead and we don't get a second chance, as the rich man in Luke found out. And as far as living a life of reason as you put it, God says, "My ways are not your ways, my thoughts are not your thoughts". I don't have my Bible handy so that may not be an exact quote but it's close enough.
to believe as a way to hedge your bets isnt possible for me. belief is not a matter of choice. things are true independent of whether i want them to be. i can try as hard as i can to believe something, and i can't do it. i cannot say "i better believe this, just in case it is true.". belief is not volitional. i have no choice. i cant look at red and make myself think it is blue. no matter what the punishment is. if i could, trust me, i would. nothing would please me more than eternal heaven. i do not deny the existence of anyone who lived 2 thousand years ago. i just have not been convinced that they are magic. i don't even really deny the existence of god. i just think anyone claiming to know any specifics about god doesnt know what they are talking about. if i had to guess though, i would say there is no god, and i think it really obvious that christianity is false, as well as all major religions. i see no reason to believe anything about something we don't know about. i wouldnt be stunned if there was some sort of creating thing, i just think anything other than a complete admission of ignorance is a pack of lies. cool. but the way i see, it even your non-denomiational church is a denomination, it just has no name yet, and doesnt identify with the others. it just happens to twist things your way. everyone claims their interpretation of the bible is the right one. oh man do i agree with that one! many people i know who claim to be christian don't even know what it really means, they are just going with the flow, figuring they beter play along or go to hell. i at least have more respect for a person who claims to be a christian and actually knows what john 3:16 says and lives by it. but man, its rare! beats me, i just figure they are stupid. people die for all kinds of reasons. chistianity, islam (especially islam), you name it, somebody will die for it. well every time science makes something in the bible seems silly, they just come up with a new interpretation of the bible. the bible is so open to interpretation, you can say it means anything. and people do that all the time. hold up a sec, put yourself in my shoes. or better yet, imagine you had never heard of christianity. imagine i presented it to you for the first time. it would seem sooo crazy! its wild and nuts and full of crazy miracles and seemingly nonsensical paradoxes. its not like something so easy to believe has been presented to me. not only that, but christianity is just one of a myriad of religions presented to me for belief. again, you cannot choose to believe something in the same way that you can choose to eat a cheeseburger. i dunno, how do i explain the millions of jews and millions of hindus and millions of everything else that believe some other thing that is gonna send them straight to hell, through no fault of their own. if islam is a lie, how come so many people die for it?
Yeah, what MikethTiger69 said. I can say that I don't pretend to know what God has planned for 'the end' or what he'll do with non-believers. Frankly, I don't care. I don't live my life of Christianity because of some fear of hellfire and brimstone, nor is it because of a promise of 'paradise' when I die. God/Jesus has given me a happiness and a peace in this lifethat I didn't have before. That alone is enough for me. I don't live life by a laundry list of dos and do nots, and I don't waste my time worrying about what the guy down the street does with his time. I am a happier person and a better person. I say, whatever works.
Its pretty tough to figure out what all the rules might be and how God might apply them. Does a simple believer get the same Heavenly benefits as a super good guy like Mother Teresa? Does a non believer suffer eternal torments equal to a super bad guy like Hitler or Jeffrey Dahmer? Does everybody eventually get in after a few billion eons in Purgatory? Is Mohammed Atta roasting in eternal Hellfire or is he enjoying a Muslim paradise with his 72 virgins?
You stooge...I wasn't talking about me personally, I was talking about attitude towards everybody. As far as saving my feelings, they haven't come out at all in this entire thread. This is called a web forum. Now if I knew you in person and we were talking face to face, it would be different.
Actually ccording to Jack Chick Dinosaur bones were placed into the ground at various places in the world in the 1800s by Jesuits to push the Roman Catholic anti-Bible agenda. For more shocking whoppers visit www.chick.com And Martin all of your arguements against Christianity can be easily dispelled by looking ath the history of the Church. Not one teaching has changed in 2000 years. The teachings of the Church have been preservered since the time of the Apostles. The Bible is just a part of God's revelation. Remember that the conclusion to John's Gospel says that Jesus did and taught so much that all the volumes in the world counldn't contain it if they were all written down.
Techniqally he is still a Catholic. Once you are baptised you are always a Catholic. He may be an apostate or Heretic. Either way he needs to make a confession and come home to the Church. There is not even one Bible verse that points to sola scriptura. It is as unBiblical as the assumption of Mary. There are several verses that point to the oral teachings or traditions that are not found in the Bible. Also non-denom Christains have no real concept of the history of the Bible. Like for example the first books of the NT were written in about 50 AD. So did Christians in those first 17 years have no idea what to belive? No they knew what to believe because of the Church. The new testament was compiled into one work no earlier than 325 at the Council of Nicea. Before then churches used the Books that were addressed to them. The Romans used Romans and the Gospel of Mark for example. The point is the Church existed before the Bible. The Bible is not sufficent for understanding God. It is just one of the many tools he provided for us.
