Way to cut your losses, Bush..

Discussion in 'Free Speech Alley' started by JD, May 14, 2003.

  1. JD

    JD Founding Member

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    and fire of Cheney's friend, and world arms dealer, Jay Garner. This guy had no plan, no organization, no clue. The least bit of something unanticipated happens, and his hands were tied.
     
  2. Jetstorm

    Jetstorm Founding Member

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    Read this:

    http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/75340.htm

    The problem is a lot deeper than Garner. We've got to get organized over there, and we need to start by telling any NGO or UN entity that won't cooperate with U.S. forces to pack their stuff and get the FUDGE out. We're doing all the work and they are more concerned with "sermonizing" about how evil America is. All the while they are too afraid to go out and help the Iraqi people.
     
  3. Bengal B

    Bengal B Founding Member

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    The problem with establishing a democratic form of govenment in Iraq is that these people have absolutley no experience with any for of democracy whatsoever and because of that have no concept of individual rights for the common man (much less for women) The Shiites majority would gladly embrace a repressive ayatollah brutal dictator as long as he was one of their own. Same for the Sunnis. Can these people ever be taught to respect and cherish the rights of the indiviual? Hell if I know but if anybody has any idea how to do it its worth a try
     
  4. Bestbank Tiger

    Bestbank Tiger Founding Member

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    I agree...we have to at least try.

    50-60 years ago, there was no reason to think democracy could work in continental Europe. But we bought their loyalty so they wouldn't side with the Communists. We need to do the same with the Arab world to keep them away from the Jihadists.
     
  5. JD

    JD Founding Member

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    Much less Japan.
     
  6. Bengal B

    Bengal B Founding Member

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    The concepts of democracy and individual rights was germinated in Western Europe as long ago as the late middle ages. It took hundreds of years for truly democratic governments to form but the belief that individuals have rights to live their lives free of excessive intervention has existed in the minds and cultures of Europeans for hundreds of years. Sure there have been plenty of setbacks (Germany under Hitler, ect.) but Western Europeans generally have been free to live out their lives without being subject to being arrested at any whim of their govenment or having family members simply disappear because they were suspected of anti govenment sentiments. Even Eastern European counties like Poland, Romania and even Russia are moving toward a more democratic form of government.

    On the other hand Middle Eastern and Arabic people have for the most part never been exposed to these concepts and it is foreign to their nature and culture to expect the rights of freedom to act and speak without fear of retaliation. Here is an example: Last year I was at a friends apartment and he and I and a few other of the people who lived in th complex were standing outside talking near the door of a Pakistani couple who lived their. A plumber knocked on the Pakistani's door and the guy let him in to do some work in the bathroom. The Pakistani guy then left for a few minutes to get something out of his car or whatever. While he was gone his wife came home and entered the apartment. When the guy returned and saw through the open door that his wife was walking toward the bathroom where the plumber was working he screamed a single word "Sit" Like an obedient well trained dog his wife immediately dropped into a squating position without taking another step. What the hell was this guy thinking? That his wife would see a fully clothed guy in the bathroom and become so aroused that she would take off he clothes and throw herself at him? We all know what would happen if any American women was talked to like that. (If you don't know try it with your wife or girlfriend and see what happens)

    The whole point is how to convince those people that they have the right to elect a govenment that will be servants of the people instead of making the people servants of the govenment. It won't be easy to change a mindset that has been ingrained into the Arabic culture for centuries. Sure there is a minority of educated people in Iraq but Iraq even under Saddam was considered to be an industrialized country the majority of the people still live in the 9th or 10th century. Think of the worst pockets of poverty in the USA, The worst ghetto, parts of appalaicha, a barrio - even people living in the worst conditions that America has to offer know that they have the right to take anybody who does them wrong to court. Even if they fear the police they know that their relatives won't just disapear with no trace. They know they won't be massacred because of their religion. Even the people who are the worst off in America are light years ahead of most Middle Eastern people.

    Is it posible to bring a democratic society to fanatics with a 10th century mentality who believe that if they die in the act of killing a few of us infidels that they will be instantly transported to paradise and be given 72 virgins? A lot of Americans have sacrificed their lives defending out country. Same for the British. Even the Germans and Russians who lost their lives fighting for evil regimes at least were fighting for their countries. Japanese Zero pilots dive bombed planes into American ships in an act of hari kari BUT - as noble or as reprehensible as the cause they were willing to pay the ultimate sacrifice for nobody from American, European or Japanese countries have deliberatly blown themselves up in order to kill innocent civilians. Even the Japanese suicide missions were directed against military targets. Muslim suicide bombers are willing to die so they can kill 3, 7, 12, 20 or more innocent victims at a time who might be on a bus or at a restaurant or nightclub or shopping mall. Terrorists are only able to recruit people willing to be suicide bombers and train and condition them to do it because they are drawing recruits from an ignorant and unsophisticated pool of uneducated youths who have been indoctrinated from birth that all non Muslims are infidels.

    I wish there was a simple solution to this but even if there is it will take a very long time to educate the middle eastern people to a point where they will abandon their backward ideals.
     

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